Trending on Moneyweb
Top articles and comments, based on the Moneyweb Insiders activity.
The top shared articles of past 24hours.
    Patrick Cairns / 11 December 2018 Well, no.
     210      22   
    Hilton Tarrant / 11 December 2018 Only two banks lead in the vanilla account space.
     69      8   
    Paul Wallace, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 Could SA's equities market rebound from its worst year in the past decade?
     59      21   
    Ingé Lamprecht / 11 December 2018 How do you get someone to sacrifice something today so they can have something better tomorrow?
     40      13   
    Antoinette Slabbert / 11 December 2018 'Stratagem for delay ties in with history of case'.
     38      8   
    Neesa Moodley / 11 December 2018 Key considerations when you receive an unexpected monetary gain.
     17      2   
    John Bowker, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 The billionaire may be about to bring his Tesla electric cars back home.
     13      4   
    Olivia Carville, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 Brewer is struggling to whittle down its $100bn debt load.
     11      0   
    Antony Sguazzin, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 'The fiscus is not in a position to continue pouring money into assets which are not productive', says Mboweni.
     5      0   
    Annie Massa, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 Gemini Trust co-founders are trying to woo individual investors through a new app that allows users to purchase virtual currencies on their exchange.
     3      0   
    Moneyweb / 11 December 2018 Alexander Forbes interim results, mining and manufacturing data, employment stats, ex-Sars boss to hear fate.
     3      0   
    TechCentral / 11 December 2018 The Internet Service Providers’ Association says the investigation gets to the bottom of the cost of communication in SA.
     2      1   
    Nomvelo Chalumbira, Reuters / 11 December 2018 Positive manufacturing data suggests economy recovering from recession.
     2      0   
    Arabile Gumede / 11 December 2018 How much do you need to have to start investing offshore?
     2      0   
    Deena Shanker, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 The plan has the potential to change practices for the overall beef industry.
     2      0   
    Loni Prinsloo, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 The cash injection from London-based CDC, gives it a stake of almost 10% in Liquid Telecom.
     2      0   
    Andries van Zyl / 11 December 2018 Impala Platinum, Sibanye Gold en AnlgoGold Ashanti se aandeel-pryse klim.
     1      0   
    Rene Vollgraaff, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 The gold mining industry is battling unprofitable mines and labour strikes.
     1      0   
    Andries van Zyl / 11 December 2018 Maar, sê Dawie Roodt – hoof-ekonoom, Efficient-groep, dit gaan nie 'sommer gebeur nie'.
     1      0   
    Eric Newcomer, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 The top holders of America’s main ride-hailing companies are SoftBank Group and Rakuten.
     1      0   
The top shared articles of the past 7 days.
    Julius Cobbett / 7 December 2018 Access to the payment universe was granted by Standard Bank.
     548      25   
    Paul Richardson, Bloomberg / 9 December 2018 The company can't be allowed to fail, says Abel Sithole.
     268      9   
    Hilton Tarrant / 10 December 2018 The five not-so-minor problem it aims to fix.
     268      20   
    Antoinette Slabbert / 7 December 2018 'We have to serve South Africa better.'
     256      43   
    Hilton Tarrant / 7 December 2018 Expect the gradual 'correction' to continue into 2019 …
     249      35   
    Patrick Cairns / 11 December 2018 Well, no.
     210      22   
    James-Brent Styan / 6 December 2018 The cost and impact of load shedding on South Africa.
     205      45   
    Ciaran Ryan / 7 December 2018 Don’t talk to them on the phone for a start.
     134      2   
    Patrick Cairns / 6 December 2018 But there is a longer-term story.
     106      27   
    Ingé Lamprecht / 10 December 2018 FSCA hopes to provide retirees with some basic protection.
     89      15   
    Ciaran Ryan / 10 December 2018 Local communities find themselves in the driving seat.
     75      4   
    Hilton Tarrant / 11 December 2018 Only two banks lead in the vanilla account space.
     69      8   
    John Bowker and Loni Prinsloo, Bloomberg / 6 December 2018 Johann Rupert defends white wealth.
     68      37   
    Patrick Cairns / 10 December 2018 And the wonder of compounding.
     60      6   
    Paul Wallace, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 Could SA's equities market rebound from its worst year in the past decade?
     59      21   
    Nkareng Mpobane / 8 December 2018 Looking back at the year that was.
     56      6   
    Jerry Schuitema / 7 December 2018 Seeing the numbers through a different lens.
     55      3   
    Ingé Lamprecht / 7 December 2018 But it won’t happen overnight.
     50      2   
    Amanda Visser / 5 December 2018 Treasury is sticking to its amendment to limit the tax-free income South Africans earn outside of the country to R1m.
     44      2   
    Barbara Curson / 10 December 2018 The last remaining deep well surrounded by encroaching desert.
     44      13   
The top shared articles of the past month.
    Julius Cobbett / 7 December 2018 Access to the payment universe was granted by Standard Bank.
     548      25   
    Ciaran Ryan / 16 November 2018 R100 billion – that's what Transnet owes pensioners, who are dying off at the rate of 300 to 400 a month.
     359      18   
    Hilton Tarrant / 12 November 2018 Widespread outrage at new platform that allows customers to deal directly with each other …
     343      49   
    Ciaran Ryan / 4 December 2018 More than 4 000 bank customers claim they were charged 30% more than whites on mortgage loans.
     314      44   
    Patrick Cairns / 27 November 2018 You can currently get a higher yield from the share than you would in a notice account.
     302      31   
    Suren Naidoo / 30 November 2018 Spearheaded by two well-known but publicity-shy KZN magnates.
     282      6   
    Patrick Cairns / 22 November 2018 Construction companies are the bourse's real dogs.
     270      20   
    Paul Richardson, Bloomberg / 9 December 2018 The company can't be allowed to fail, says Abel Sithole.
     268      9   
    Hilton Tarrant / 10 December 2018 The five not-so-minor problem it aims to fix.
     268      20   
    Mike Schüssler / 29 November 2018 Therefore, the Department of Energy can afford to drop the slate levy for December.
     264      11   
    Antoinette Slabbert / 7 December 2018 'We have to serve South Africa better.'
     256      43   
    Hilton Tarrant / 7 December 2018 Expect the gradual 'correction' to continue into 2019 …
     249      35   
    Hilton Tarrant / 14 November 2018 The upstart, now owned by African Rainbow Capital, unveils its game-changer …
     220      24   
    Patrick Cairns / 11 December 2018 Well, no.
     210      22   
    James-Brent Styan / 6 December 2018 The cost and impact of load shedding on South Africa.
     205      45   
    Hilton Tarrant / 15 November 2018 The group finally takes the wraps off its offering. Well, sort of …
     202      53   
    Antoinette Slabbert / 20 November 2018 Likelihood of Stage 8 load shedding 'low'.
     192      26   
    Hilton Tarrant / 29 November 2018 A comparison with bank and retailer rewards programmes.
     181      10   
    Tanisha Heiberg, Reuters / 23 November 2018 State-owned logistics firm to investigate allegations around awarding of contract.
     162      1   
    Mike Lombard / 21 November 2018 'I expect the same courtesy from you as you expect from me.'
     158      27   
The latest 20 comments.
  1. TheInvestorLife

    11 December 2018 @ 10:22 pm
  2. My kettie is ge olie ;)
  3. grahamcr

    11 December 2018 @ 9:55 pm
  4. Then bank with them and pay the admin fees
  5. Daviddebeer

    11 December 2018 @ 9:21 pm
  6. I didnt think anyone here is a portfolio manager? Inflation linked bonds. Usd dollars or gold
  7. David Melvill

    11 December 2018 @ 9:17 pm
  8. Gold One was the one mine that was built in the last 30 years at Modder East (outside Springs). The ore was shallow - only 500m deep. It mined gold at $500 an ounce. It was very successful and profitable indeed, so much so that the Chinese first purchased a strategic stake and then when fully satisfied, bought out all the shareholders and delisted it in 2014. It can be done again! We need brave investors, that time is coming again.
  9. DeonK

    11 December 2018 @ 9:16 pm
  10. why should they...banks are not non-profits
  11. Daviddebeer

    11 December 2018 @ 9:03 pm
  12. Well an option might be to have part of your retirement savings in an inflation linked Life annuity? It does guarantee an income for life, come what may and so long as the insurers can remain solvent. Its an option.
  13. Johan_Buys

    11 December 2018 @ 8:42 pm
  14. A rational and moral investor would not p on this crowd if they were in fire
  15. Mr Groenewald

    11 December 2018 @ 8:32 pm
  16. Lekker man. Sounds like a fine target for expropriation.
  17. rtanski

    11 December 2018 @ 8:09 pm
  18. why not confront the elephant? Inflation and currency devaluation make savings (for the few who can afford them) seem worth less tomorrow than today? Or is it only portfolio managers who comment here?
  19. supersunbird

    11 December 2018 @ 7:46 pm
  20. Why make the RA (or any other retirement fund) a LA if it's a backup plan? Just keep it as it is until you want to make it a LA. And there are cheap RAs, even managed ones.
  21. TheInvestorLife

    11 December 2018 @ 6:10 pm
  22. Yes, we farm with about 2500 ewes which is our main source of income ( meat and wool ) . We have a nice rand hedge ( as the ZAR weakens, the wool price goes up ) . An ewe's income is about 75% from the meat, 25% from the wool.. typically a ewe cost R2400 each. I see the agricultural sector as a very diverse asset, you are exposed to so many markets.. worldwide. The farm is already paid off, we are only paying property/land taxes which is minimal. The cows on the other hand, is a major step forward for our farm business . They can eat bushed , " riete " and trees that sheep cannot reach. They also require almost zero work.. except vaccinations and dosing that is done twice a year. A 70% return on capital is great, but with the current sheep price we make over 100% gain on capital each year. The life cycle of sheep is also shorter than cattle, meaning you can expand or increase your numbers more drastically. No matter how you diversify your assets in the market.. you will never get a 20% + return year on year. That is why i am putting my money in livestock. That is a great rule you followed, good luck with your investments and may the new year be full of joy! Boere groete uit die platteland! :D
  23. FSP

    11 December 2018 @ 6:10 pm
  24. The issue is quite simple: 1) This is not an acceptable way by any stretch of the imagination to quote a return and appears to have been invented to push product 2) They are DELIBERATELY and MALICIOUSLY deceiving the public ... Let them explain how this type of advertising passes TCF and basic common respect for your potential clients? 3)Possibly contravenes the code of conduct under the FAIS act... maybe the newly constituted FSCA should start with this one?
  25. Once used

    11 December 2018 @ 6:09 pm
  26. Getting a prison dinner will be a far cry from the up market restuarants frequented by this morally bankrupt excuse of a man and his female co-accused, and paid for with the funds allegedly ( but soon to be proven, from all accounts) stolen from poor old people. May your track record earn you both a place in our worst prisons where street justice will give you a taste of what you have both caused many many people. Oh, and don't forget to throw away the key Mr Jailer !
  27. JFK

    11 December 2018 @ 6:08 pm
  28. Uncle Cyril, Get rid of the so called members handbook....you know the one that gives all the fancy cars and other "perks"! Rightsize or shut down unnecessary SOE's and we will start to believe you!!
  29. mj stellenbosch

    11 December 2018 @ 5:40 pm
  30. Yes, RULE9, I agree with you, but it is also your responsibility to do the basic calculations: Based on: 1. The interest rate of course 2. The period of the investment 3. WHEN the interest is calculated (monthly, yearly, at the end of the period?) 4. Simple Interest or Compound Interest? To compare to other investments, you use the above to calculate the value of your capital amount PLUS the interest. This was done in this article, and if every investor actually calculated this, there would be no reason to publish this article! I am not attacking Banks, they are doing their jobs, but this is no different from The Carbonaro Effect: A friendly greeting in the beginning by an open and honest boyish face, and terminated by an "I Got You", with a lot of BS-magic (or Cara in Arabic) inbetween.
  31. momo

    11 December 2018 @ 5:17 pm
  32. The reality is no-one knows what the market is going to do next year. I would rather the market tank another 20-25% next year so that I know that I am buying into solid value.
  33. iccrap

    11 December 2018 @ 5:09 pm
  34. Well at least the members of the GEPF won't be lonely, the line of pension funds already destroyed by government lending includes Transnet, Post Office and oh for good measure Eskom's own pension fund too. I wonder what the pension fund rules are with regards to this type of investment, is it even allowed or is there "a national emergency" ruling that will apply. One only has to wonder what will happen if by some miracle the members of the Transnet pension fund legal action where to win their case against Transnet what the government would do. Word on the street is that a victory for them would be financially ruin Transnet hence the reason that they are dragging that case for as long as they can, hoping ultimately that most of the members in that case will passed away by the time to the case is over.
  35. The Navigator

    11 December 2018 @ 4:48 pm
  36. It is necessary to compare only nominal rates. "Effective" rates can vary according to compounding periods, whether annually, monthly, daily or more frequently. Just for interest, or rather (to avoid the bad pun) for amusement, try using one minute in your PV-FV return calculations. This is a shocker. It seems that Finbond CEO Dr Willem van Aardt didn't go to money school, or is trying to deliberately mislead the people. A CEO should know better than to try this short-term gimmick - Finbond will lose customers over time when they find they've been misled.
  37. boomgloom

    11 December 2018 @ 4:45 pm
  38. Gotta love this. The looting is now cannibalism. What comes the way of the pensioners will be truly remarkable to see. And it will take them completely by surprise. Vote ANC viva.
  39. The Navigator

    11 December 2018 @ 4:41 pm
  40. For a difference of less than R1 (one Rand) I am content to use Capitec, not Old Mutual, with whom i have had numerous bad experiences.
The top voted comments of the past 7 days.
  1. Grego

    6 December 2018 @ 7:03 am
  2. Johan Rupert's companies and their subsequent investments have created goods, services and jobs for our economy. He has done more for the ordinary South African than any politician or twittertician alive today. Unbelievable how his opinions create more outrage than those who were involved in VBS looting. It's almost as if those very same culprits are trying to deflect from that scandal
  3. casper1

    7 December 2018 @ 5:00 am
  4. They were gifted a fully functional and capable utility back in 94. The momentum of that planning went ok for about 10 years and then the wheels started coming off. These people cannot maintain a wheelbarrow or plan for tomorrow.
  5. Illphil

    6 December 2018 @ 8:42 am
  6. May I remember all that the Oppenheimers and the Ruperts worked very hard to create their fortunes. They paid taxes and gave work to thousands. It could be said that apartheid laws aided them, but they were not BEE beneficiaries as is in the case of Motsepe and Ramaphosa and Sexwale et al where nothing is created - no jobs or anything else but the lucky connected person gets to share in fortunes because of his skin colour only. Huge difference, my view. Those who complain hardest about WMC are those who cant wait to loot and plunder for their own benefit - and stuff the 'have-nots' SA society really sick - mind this is also true of many overseas countries.
  7. supersunbird

    7 December 2018 @ 5:25 am
  8. "Customers who feel that they have been incorrectly debited or charged for a service that they did not subscribe to should also contact the company directly to stop any future debit orders." Can Standard Bank provide working contact details for this company so that clients can contact it?
  9. David Brent

    6 December 2018 @ 6:48 am
  10. Rename the power stations after struggle stalwarts. That will solve everything.
  11. jnrb

    6 December 2018 @ 8:39 am
  12. VBS was nothing! At the Life Esidemeni tragedy, 141 people died (were murdered) after they were removed from proper care and placed at other institutions. The move was carefully planned. Even when people started complaining, the MEC Qedani Mahlangu lied and said that she had personally inspected all 26 clinics and that they had adequate facilities. Then she resigned and Govt paid each family R55,000 and the whole matter was swept under the carpet, never to be spoken of again. Mrs Qedani Mahlangu is still a MEC. Apparently, they need her because she is quite good at garnering support for the ANC at grassroots level.
  13. Davebee

    7 December 2018 @ 6:34 am
  14. Well said pal! Incidentally I see no whip cracking in any way shape or form, he's moved a couple of Megawimp Park tapeworms around and made some noises to appease Joe and Mrs. Sixpack and that's about it. Call me when this guy (who, by the way was VERY Gungho on eTolls a few years back when he was Min of Fin)phones the cops to arrest the entire board and top 10% of the Eskom Damagers on the CORRECT charge of HIGH TREASON, then we can refer to some whip cracking. Yesterday's show was more joke cracking actually.
  15. Worlds_Smallest_Violin

    7 December 2018 @ 6:27 am
  16. Is this the same Gordhan who insisted the unions get their way with pie-in-sky increases? Cracking the whip, oh please!
  17. JannieSnyman

    6 December 2018 @ 10:28 am
  18. Till the end of days they will be a victim mentality group. A few will rise above it - the rest, look no further than Africa 60+yrs after independence. BEE is/was the worst thing created as people get handouts and do not have the faintest idea of how to develop a business from ground level.
  19. PurgeCoin

    5 December 2018 @ 3:35 am
  20. The double edge sword has not been said yet but I will say it. Population Growth is exceeding 1.2% average per year there are extra 660 000 mouths which need to be fed and students to educate. This together with high unemployment 38% (17 million people) will only frustrate efforts attain any real and meaningful growth.
  21. Sensei

    9 December 2018 @ 8:53 pm
  22. Now this is what they call divine justice! ANC supporters (the majority of government employees) are going to pay for their own mistakes! People who vote for the ANC are going to foot the bill for cadre deployment. The looters are going to fund the looters! The dog is chasing its own tail. Let's take it one step further - this means that the assets of government employees are being expropriated without compensation to save their employer! Geees! never a dull moment with this bunch of lunatics.
  23. CrackerJack

    6 December 2018 @ 9:46 am
  24. The statement:"defend the stranglehold white people still have over the economy" suggests there is support for the concept that whites have a stranglehold over something. If whites do have a stranglehold, or monopoly, why do you have examples like Patrice Motsepe in the first place, or even better, Herman Mashaba who, during the height of apartheid in 1985, along with a WHITE chemist who partnered with him, launched "Black Like Me" and become super wealthy? Did the whites accidentally let one or two slip through the system? No, capitalism was working its magic - it took two people who were not even allowed to associate with one another, put them together with a third and they rose above it all to become WEALTHY. Not by taking anything from anyone, but by taking their own ideas and resources, no matter how small, getting off their backsides and making it something bigger and better. The notion that black South Africans are being prevented from doing anything is absurd, and self-flagellation for the atonement of economic sins we didn't even commit is something I cannot understand. If people are incapable of succeeding in a free and open society, help them to understand and to do what is needed to succeed- don't tell them it's someone else's fault.
  25. Duane Delaney

    6 December 2018 @ 10:47 am
  26. Everybody is missing the point here. "At the moment Eskom must borrow money to repay its debt obligations" - there is a technical term for that: BANKRUPTCY... Soweto's power is not cut (despite 98% arrears) "and the only explanation can be political" - well the solution is simple: IF THE ANC DOES NOT WANT TO CUT THE POWER TO SOWETO - THEN WE MUST. This can be done in a morning... In 25 years before 1994 Eskom built and commissioned ELEVEN power stations (at times doing commissioning at three power stations in parallel). Collectively these powerstations could generate 35,000MW. In 25 years since 1994 - one guess how many power stations has Eskom built? Roughly as many as the quantity of cognitive capacity now running the said freak show. Though what did happen in the 25 years since 1994 - Eskom went from one of the most efficient power utilities in the world to one of the worst. The critical point that the 'analysis' misses - what went wrong at Eskom is missed by a million volts. Instead, WHAT WENT WRONG WITH ESKOM IS 1994. In fact, what went wrong with SA as a whole, is 1994...
  27. ggrundli

    7 December 2018 @ 7:39 am
  28. Same happened to me at another major SA bank, R99 debit orders by company called Asiphephe. A third party managed these debit orders S.A. Payment. Neither the bank or S.A.Payment was able to provide proof of how/where/when did I give anyone permission to generate these debit orders for "lifestyle packages" that I did not purchase. Asiphephe did not respond to any of my emails and several other persons also lodged complaints about this on Hello Peter. My bank reversed the debit order but stated that it is my responsibility to ensure all my debit orders are legit. There is obviously a loophole in the bank's debit orders security control system, how can they upload a debit order without proper authorization from the client?
  29. ps

    7 December 2018 @ 8:34 am
  30. Someone want to remind me why the phuque FICA exists?
  31. Dat Boi

    7 December 2018 @ 6:59 am
  32. I'm so tired of the ANC. Gordhan is just another cadre, doing cadre things.
  33. Rule9

    11 December 2018 @ 5:07 am
  34. Investors beware. Strange and unique ways of calculating interest designed to appeal to your greed and entice you to give this mutual bank your money should be a WARNING to you.
  35. yeboBRU

    7 December 2018 @ 7:23 am
  36. Its absolutely disgusting, that all debit orders are not authorised first.... When shopping online, you verify a transaction with OTP or on a banking app, to confirm its legitimacy. BUT a debit order just happens and there is no confirmation? How sick and broken is that... Other people have easier access to YOUR account....
  37. Johan_Buys

    7 December 2018 @ 4:36 am
  38. Here is hoping that Gordhan’s efforts are not undermined! Loadshedding has a terrible impact multiples of the cost of backup generators
  39. Sensei

    6 December 2018 @ 1:42 pm
  40. It was a television interview, not the Nuremberg Trial. Mr. Rupert was the guest, not the accused. Every statement by Mr. Rupert was informative, an instruction, a gift. It was like a talk between a caring farther and a son. His comments were neutral, unbiased and factual, like the image we see in the mirror every day. He acted as a clearly polished mirror on the South African society. Now, those people who do not like the truth about their own image, who despise their own image, reacted by attacking the mirror. The intelligent thing to do is to trust the mirror, and to change and improve our image. The intelligent person who do not like a certain comment has the prerogative to decline the "gift" that he received from Mr. Rupert. You do not have to accept a gift if you do not like it. Why take a comment personally when it has no bearing on you? You only take it personally when your subconscious mind admits that this is the painful reality. It is rude to insult a person if he brings you gifts, it is crazy to disrespect someone else because you do not like your own reflection in the mirror. The replies to the opinions of Mr. Rupert says more about our society than what Mr. Rupert actually said. The replies from commentators on the floor gave us the true reflection of their attitude. They are immature, unintelligent, naive, jealous, lazy, and incompetent. In short, they suffer from the slave mentality.
The top commented articles of the past 7 days.
    James-Brent Styan / 6 December 2018 The cost and impact of load shedding on South Africa.
     205      45   
    Antoinette Slabbert / 7 December 2018 'We have to serve South Africa better.'
     256      43   
    John Bowker and Loni Prinsloo, Bloomberg / 6 December 2018 Johann Rupert defends white wealth.
     68      37   
    Hilton Tarrant / 7 December 2018 Expect the gradual 'correction' to continue into 2019 …
     249      35   
    Patrick Cairns / 7 December 2018 Can brokers do more to protect their clients?
     18      32   
    Patrick Cairns / 6 December 2018 But there is a longer-term story.
     106      27   
    Julius Cobbett / 7 December 2018 Access to the payment universe was granted by Standard Bank.
     548      25   
    Patrick Cairns / 11 December 2018 Well, no.
     210      22   
    Ingé Lamprecht / 5 December 2018 Despite improved outlook, risks remain.
     39      21   
    Paul Wallace, Bloomberg / 11 December 2018 Could SA's equities market rebound from its worst year in the past decade?
     59      21   
    Hilton Tarrant / 10 December 2018 The five not-so-minor problem it aims to fix.
     268      20   
    Patrick Cairns / 5 December 2018 It's about managing it.
     22      18   
    Felix Njini, Bloomberg / 9 December 2018 Gold industry now employs less than a fifth of the number that used to power the apartheid economy.
     29      16   
    Ingé Lamprecht / 10 December 2018 FSCA hopes to provide retirees with some basic protection.
     89      15   
    Barbara Curson / 10 December 2018 The last remaining deep well surrounded by encroaching desert.
     44      13   
    Ingé Lamprecht / 11 December 2018 How do you get someone to sacrifice something today so they can have something better tomorrow?
     40      13   
    Mike Cohen and Paul Burkhardt, Bloomberg / 5 December 2018 No easy answers for ailing parastatal.
     9      13   
    Hilton Tarrant / 5 December 2018 Fees for some accounts are up over 60% in three years …
     30      11   
    Nqobile Dludla and Emma Rumney, Reuters / 6 December 2018 PwC report delayed until February.
     35      11   
    Roxanne Henderson, Antony Sguazzin and Gordon Bell, Bloomberg / 7 December 2018 Pullinger says embattled parastatal should dispose of Medupi, Kusile to repair finances.
     13      9   
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